should PANGEA sell Leachianus ?

[max power]

if yes. what species and would u buy them here?

if no. why ?


:-k :-k :-k :-k :-k :-k :-k :-k

[bleeding_sarcasm]

yes, if you specificly KNOW the local, no mutts, or "maybe its such and such" it would be interesting to see a few different locals, besides island e, maybe bayonese [sp?]? ive always thought they were really beautiful, and either nu ami or nu ana would be really nice at affordable prices [hint hint]

[DDReptiles]

I don't know why not :?

[Haroldo]

I would like to see some dark morphs here as I hope to buy a pair or 2 next season. I already have Nuu Ami, but I would like to see some european stock here. I also wouldn't mind the infamous Snowflakes or Nuu Ana.

[RangerGrrl]

If leachies blow Matt's hair back enough that he would love to raise them, I'd love to eventually buy one.

I think there's a lack of Grande Terre animals (leachianus leachianus, not leachianus henkeli) so that's my vote. Seems like hardly anyone is breeding Types A, B, and C without hybridization. I'd like to buy a mega monster Type C if I can get one. I agree with getting pure locality stock, no hybrids. That's my 2 cents.

[Sanskrit]

Grand Terre! I agree with RangerGrrl that some nice GT animals with no hybridization between types A, B, and C would be awesome! I'm not sure how realistic it would be to ask Matt to get a breeding pair of type C's but I can dream can't I? If he did start producing them I would want to be number one on his list for a Grand Terre type B hatchling. *cough* :wink:

[Lumpynutz]

I think the only one in the country with type C is philip tremper. Good luck, he has like a 2-3 year waiting list, and $650 per hatchling.

[Crested Lady]

I think there's a lack of Grande Terre animals (leachianus leachianus, not leachianus henkeli) so that's my vote. Seems like hardly anyone is breeding Types A, B, and C without hybridization. I'd like to buy a mega monster Type C if I can get one. I agree with getting pure locality stock, no hybrids. That's my 2 cents.

Amen! :D

[Lumpynutz]

I'm still looking to sell my 2yr old pair?? let me know if there are any takers?? Hey sarah, I see that you are back online. How did your move go? was it a big headache? all of your animals make the transition??

[RangerGrrl]

2 to 3 year wait!?!?!?! Wow, and expensive to boot! How's the Type C situation in Europe? Sounds like we have a definite need for more breeders, but also more unrelated animals!

[Matthew Parks]

Ok question for everyone. We have had the Hybrid debate on this forum before and the overwhelming majority of people said they had no problems with people hybridizing cresteds with other species. But it seems that everyone has problems with people crossing the different types of Leachies. And with Leachies we're just dealing with locality types and debatably sub-species. Definitely not as drastic as crossing two completely seperate species. It would seem to me that the argument for genetic vigor from "hybridizing" would apply to cross breeding the different types of Leachies way more than creating a new species through true hybridization. I havn't decided whether to get into Leachies or not but I don't want to be bound by breeding only certain locality types. If I can't selectively breed for certain traits then it's really no fun for me. Anyways I'd love to here your feedback on this, and I'm not attacking anyone, I just would like to hear from the "Leachie" community on this subject. :D

Im posting this as a seperate topic, so please reply in the other thread.

[MintyHippo]

I dont care if it is a hybrid or not as long as its affordable :D

[bleeding_sarcasm]

...

[Misskiwi67]

I don't know what I want, I just know I want one... I don't know enough about localities and such to care...

[tminard18]

matt.. i think you should do whatever you enjoy..if you wanna breed for traits then do it....

why would we not want you to sell leachies..it'd be a nice ...well known place for us to buy them..instead of kingsnake and fauna...

i like to keep the different locals seperated because i like the notion of a pure breeed..when people buy a hybrid (crested/chahoua) they know they are getting a freak that was never in nature....i like them though...very beautiful
i think its the fact that you can look at a hybrid and know its a hybrid..with the locals of leachies its much harder to tell..

eventually in the next couple years with all the crossbreeding of locals the bloodlines will be muddied and you will see more mixed babies than pure...the pure will always be available to those who seek them out... so do your thing

[jaspersail]

While I like the IDEA of keeping locale-specific lines of leachinanus, I believe there are too few animals of each variety to make that a good idea. I think it's telling that Philippe de Vosjoli, who has a large collection of F1 and F2 animals, is leading the charge of interbreeding locales.

Matt, if you get into leachies, I hope you pursue color morphs and forget locales.

--John

[cizin]

Well, as someone who deals with dogs as well as reptiles, let me put in my $.02. A morph in a leachie is no different really than a breed in a dog. All leachies are leachies, and all dogs are canis lupus familiaris. That said, each breed of dog comes from mixing dogs for desired traits. We would have no German shepard, Sheepdogs, or any other specific dog without it. I think that's a good thing, if not a great thing. On the otherhand, america has the current bullsh!t trend of 'labradoodle,' 'puggle,' and other such nonsence just to make a buck. I, personally, view the Crested/Chahoua crosses as designer mutts, because the animals are put together for no other reason than to make quick cash, the good of the animal be damned. People talk all about 'hybrid vigor,' which is a load of garbage, because time has not told what will happen. Now, I'm not saying I'd be against working with said crosses, just that I think the INTENT behind them isn't honorable. They could be done right, possibly. If you breed Leachie local crosses to make good, geneticly diverse animals, that will hopefully look cool, then go right ahead. I, personally, want 1 or 2 pure animals in my collection. However, I also want some crosses. Go fig.

[Adam105]

Yes, and I want a... leachie even though I cant afford one. :)

[tminard18]

Well, as someone who deals with dogs as well as reptiles, let me put in my $.02. A morph in a leachie is no different really than a breed in a dog. All leachies are leachies, and all dogs are canis lupus familiaris. That said, each breed of dog comes from mixing dogs for desired traits. We would have no German shepard, Sheepdogs, or any other specific dog without it. I think that's a good thing, if not a great thing. On the otherhand, america has the current bullsh!t trend of 'labradoodle,' 'puggle,' and other such nonsence just to make a buck. I, personally, view the Crested/Chahoua crosses as designer mutts, because the animals are put together for no other reason than to make quick cash, the good of the animal be damned. People talk all about 'hybrid vigor,' which is a load of garbage, because time has not told what will happen. Now, I'm not saying I'd be against working with said crosses, just that I think the INTENT behind them isn't honorable. They could be done right, possibly. If you breed Leachie local crosses to make good, geneticly diverse animals, that will hopefully look cool, then go right ahead. I, personally, want 1 or 2 pure animals in my collection. However, I also want some crosses. Go fig.

i do not believe hybrids were created to make a quick buck...it was to see if it could be done...and they are spendy cause theres very few....they cross all kinds of species without any ill effects..ever seen a liger? some hybrids such as the wolf/ dog hybrids do have problems but i doubt we'll see the same thing with chahoua/cresteds.

[MiNuRvA]

when people buy a hybrid (crested/chahoua) they know they are getting a freak that was never in nature....i like them though...very beautiful



I would bet my paycheck that selective breeding has already created colors and patterns that would be considered 'freakish' when compared to natural, wild cresties or chewies. When that first albino crested or true moonglow comes up for sale- will you be one of the many who want one? an animal like that would not survive in the wild, and to see one there would be extremely extraordinary and 'freakish'.

'Hybrid vigor' IS a load of crap- unless you're breeding two genetically sound, healthy animals, so you wouldn't really be able to produce anything that's MORE healthy than a breeding of two healthy cresties. Occasionally hybridizing can actually cause health issues, such as sterilization and who knows what else- it hasn't been done enough in rhacs to really know, has it? To go back to the dog example, if you breed a german shepherd with bad hips to a lab with bad hips you'll get pups that will likely have bad hips. They're not healthier JUST because they're crossed. If we were talking about wild animals, then yes, because natural selection is taking place. Unhealthy animals are not as likely to be able to successfully reach maturity and reproduce in the wild. Captivity and selective breeding are a whole other ballgame.

That being said, crossing locals is NOT hybridizing. People keep calling them mutts which makes me laugh. You're not contaminating a gene pool by crossing locals, you're broadening it. These animals will never be used to replenish the wild populations and will never affect what happens to wild populations. When you say you don't like the idea of not having a ''pure'' breed, why? What's so bad about having one with mixed genetics? What's so good about having one with ''pure'' genetics? I would also bet my paycheck that selective breeding will eventually ruin the bloodline of any animal if done to excess, just like in the dog world with german shepherds, labs, dalmatians, etc etc etc. You name it, they're a shell of what they were originally meant to be.

I have a question- floppy tail syndrome. Anybody REALLY know what causes it? Could there be some genetics behind it? I have a hard time believing that an animal who hangs upside down regularly in the wild would suddenly become 'handicapped' by FTS in captivity without some other factors coming into play. I have heard of breeders who force the gecko with fts to drop it's tail and then breed them anyways- has anyone followed lines enough to know if there's a genetic link? This is just one of the many concerns I see with selective breeding, so I would think that crossing locals at this point would only serve to strengthen lines, not weaken.

...Just my .02

[MiNuRvA]

i do not believe hybrids were created to make a quick buck...it was to see if it could be done...and they are spendy cause theres very few....they cross all kinds of species without any ill effects..ever seen a liger? some hybrids such as the wolf/ dog hybrids do have problems but i doubt we'll see the same thing with chahoua/cresteds.

Anything that's new and different will go for a quick buck. If hybrids become more popular, they'll flood the market just like certain morphs of cresties have. It may be in the interest of curiosity, but curiosity killed the cat, and it will eventually turn into a business. Ligers have not been extensively bred and there is no way to know if they would be healthy long term unless a line of ligers was created and bred down. They will most likely remain at the hybrid phase for a very long time since the AZA won't allow it's members to hybridize species. It's already been shown that they sometimes are born without a growth inhibitor gene, so they often grow upwards of 900 lbs. Genetically, neither the lion or tiger was meant to be that big, so there's a lot of stress on their bodies and organs. The issue is you NEVER know what you're going to get with a hybrid, you'll only know by experimentation. I don't know of a lot of health issues that plague wolf dog hybrids, other than the fact that they are temperamentally different than a domestic canine. What makes you think that there won't be problems with crestie hybrids? Not being rude, just wondering if your thoughts are based on something you didn't ad in your previous post or were just opinion. There may very well be no problems with them, but then again, you just never know.

[Brian]

Well hybrid vigor exists, but I've never seen it proved for a Rhac gecko. It's usually associated with plants not animals.

Locals, what is a local. All locals are not equal. Some might have virtually genetically the same animals while others have quite different ones. Morphology may or may not agree with the genetics.

Crossing some locals under certian conditions could be hybridizing under some species concepts if certian conditions were met. Under others it wouldn't.

I thought ligers had aggression problems BTW?

[cizin]

i do not believe hybrids were created to make a quick buck...it was to see if it could be done...and they are spendy cause theres very few....they cross all kinds of species without any ill effects..ever seen a liger? some hybrids such as the wolf/ dog hybrids do have problems but i doubt we'll see the same thing with chahoua/cresteds.

Actually, yeah, I have seen a liger, and a tigon. Have you seen a tigon? No. You know why? Because the gene that limits size does not occur in a liger pairing, and occurs TWICE in a tigon pairing. Tigons are small, so no one cares. Ligers are HUGE, so they draw a crowd that pays to see them. They also have major health problems because neither parent has the make up to withstand being 900 pounds. Bad example of an animal without any ill effects.

[MiNuRvA]

I thought ligers had aggression problems BTW?
That I don't know. I do know that I've worked with tigers and lions both in a sanctuary setting and I think that any cat kept in captivity is dangerous- then add on top of that the fact that it's 900lbs- craziness in my book.

Let me rephrase my previous statement about hybrid vigor. It's a load of crap IF you're breeding two animals together and think that the cross alone creates that vigor. In the wild and left to their own devices, feral dogs will cross and cross and cross, and eventually will all look very similar and be generally healthy. Survival of the fittest. This is not the case when you are selectively breeding animals, for various factors. One, an animal gets sick, we treat it at the vet. Two, an animal isn't perfect- but we like the pattern and breed it anyways. Three- there is unknown parentage on the part of the male or female, but again we like the pattern and breed it anyways. If you have not carefully documented and researched your pedigrees on the part of both parents you don't know what you're getting. Even then there's the possibility of something popping up. Cross breeding can ONLY improve on an animal IF and ONLY if neither of the parents has any genetic faults. It's not just the act of crossing two locals that would make them healthier.(as opposed to hybridizing in which case you have no idea what will happen and what won't until the offspring have matured and can be evaluated.)

[cizin]

I thought ligers had aggression problems BTW?

They do, but it's unclear as to if said bad behavior is caused by genetics, or if it's a side effect to the cronic joint pain they feel.

[ReptileChick]

Not going to get into debate, just want to say I would do it Matt. I personally like mutts!

[jackxc925]

i do not believe hybrids were created to make a quick buck...it was to see if it could be done...and they are spendy cause theres very few....they cross all kinds of species without any ill effects..ever seen a liger? some hybrids such as the wolf/ dog hybrids do have problems but i doubt we'll see the same thing with chahoua/cresteds.

Ligers have extremely bad health problems

[MiNuRvA]

I would say yes- and cross breed away!

[tminard18]

i was just saying that we cross all kinds of stuff....i dont see how you could compare differnt color morphs to an actual hybrid....geckos breed in the wild and crazy morphs are made...hybrids are freaks...nothin wrong with that

i would rather breed a chahoua and crested and find out what happens than sit and wonder about it...if health problems arise..than tough shit..we learned our lesson....

theres nothing that maeks a pure lab better than a lab mutt....but people pay 400 bucks for labs..cause humans are wierd and we like the idea of a pure breed..even though it doesnt matter at alll...

yes an albino would die in nature....and of course i want one....theres a huge differnce between an albino and color variations and actually crossin to species

[MiNuRvA]

Yes, there is a huge difference. What I'm getting at is you were saying that a hybrid is a freak and against nature, well selective breeding has created animals that are not natural and would be considered 'freakish'. Selective breeding can cause just as many problems if not more than hybridizing and cross breeding because for every ''positive'' trait you breed to emphasise, a negative is likely to be emphasized and carried on down the line. Back to dogs, people started liking the looks of 'sloping hips' in german shepherds, and selectively bred for it. In the beginning it was acceptable and the dogs were healthy. Eventually the slope became extreme and the change in their physical structure also changed their movement, so they were no longer able to perform their jobs the way they were originally meant. The same can happen with any selectively bred structure trait. I could see large floppy crests possibly making it hard for geckos to hunt, for example, and who knows what else. Genetic factors can also come up with selectively bred color combinations. In boxers, the white color is linked to deafness, they're not albinos, but a gene that is linked to the white color gene often causes deafness in them. Same with blue eyes in dalmatians, and alopecia and seborrheic skin in fawn and blue dobermans, so you see, even selectively breeding for color can cause problems. Do you honestly think there are good chances of finding a 100% pinstripe in the wild? So how do you determine whether it's ok to selectively breed or hybridize? Which is OK and which is not? It would be a moral and ethical thing to say that it should not be done if it's going to be a situation where unealthy animals are produced and genetic problems arise. If the animals turned out healthy, then why not breed them? People keep talking about wanting 'pure' blood, but what's so bad about a cross breed? We're talking about the pet industry here, not conservation efforts. There are several types of hybridized macaws, and they've become pretty popular, so why not with rhacs? I'm not exactly jumping up and down to get one, mainly because I don't need any more animals, but I don't think I'd have a problem with buying one if I were in a position to do so. I find the new colors and patterns interesting and think there's potential for developing it into new patterns in cresties. Animals hybridize in the wild on occasion anyhow, I'm sure that's how a lot of our new species came about.

[tminard18]

nevermind...


theres huge difference between a hybrid and breeding for color...i guess we just shouldnt breed anything...since you have a chance of problems.....i'm sure there are red cresteds and pinstripes in the wild....they are breeding just as much as we are...youre gonna have to take this up with every person that has selectively bred and animal for the past 1000 years...its what we do..its what we will doo...boo hoo

[MiNuRvA]

Well you're missing the point. I never said we shouldn't selectively breed. I was pointing out that you said hybrids are freaks, but eventually most selectivlely bred animals turn into a sort of 'freak' of nature as well, so what makes one OK and one not? It's not likely that you'll find a lot of 100% pinners in the wild. The reason is because one pinner doesn't think to himself 'hmm... I'd really like to breed to another pinner'. That's what selective breeding is about- to breed to specially chosen animals to ENHANCE a trait. Not just to produce more of the same. A lot of breeders use partial pinners in their quest to produce perfect pins. Take for example the red crests that were discussed in another thread. Somone mentioned that they'd like to see that trait bred for to try to produce a red pinstripe. It's not necessarily something that would ever happen in the wild- it's man-made by selecting animals that exhibit similar traits and seeing if you can produce one that has that same trait to a greater degree. by doing so you're mating animals who in the wild may never have crossed paths because there are so many patterns and colors, or maybe never even survived in the wild, so it isn't natural.

Anyhow the point of my previous post was to ask a question. Why is selective breeding OK, even though it creates ''not natural'' patterns and colors, but hybridizing is not?

[tminard18]

cause they are in completely different ball parks...

crossing two species and breeding for color is soooo differnt, if you disagree with that then we're just at a mock point...

let me switch out the word freak with...could never happen in the wild....
i understand that the chance of finding a full pinner would be practically impossible..but still possible...maybe we disagree and its just stipulation, but i think there are definately partial pins and other colors in the wild...i dont know how large their numbers are in the wild but all these colors are in their genes...maybe not as distinguished....but still there.

[MiNuRvA]

some hybridizatios occur in the wild- like the polar bear/ grizzly bear cross. It's been documented numerous times. as well as a species of fly that hybridized when populations got low. So it's not that it will never happen, just that it's not likely. But then a moon glow is not likely either. What would happen to cresties if, hypothetically speaking, moonglows took off, but then we learned that the color gene was related to deafness, or poor vision? Of course it would be fine in captivity, but it would never survive in the wild. The color gene may be there but so is the gene that, when affected, causes the mental retardation that comes with downs syndrome in humans. Just because it's there doesn't make it good.

[tminard18]

ya but theres absolutley nothing to suggest that cresteds with crazy colors will be deaf or blind so its irrelevant..

[MiNuRvA]

*sigh*

You're right, there's nothing to suggest it. But there was nothing to suggest it before it happened in dogs. It COULD happen is the point- and there are inevitably problems with any selective breeding program. If a hybrid is healthy, then what's the problem with it, other than you may or may not find it in nature?

[tminard18]

i have no problem with hybrids..i want one...i'm down with whatever...breeding for color..structural traits....crossing species...

[ciliatus]

Sorry, but some people are mixing a whole lot of words here. What has hybridisation to do with local forms of R. leachianus? As long as its not proven, that they diver in genetics its just an optical issue... So keeping a pure locality (if half of the animals on the market are really what they claim) is just another form of "morphbreeding". Same goes with Furcifer pardalis imho....

And dont forget, we dont breed Rhacs so they can be set free again in New Caledonia. No matter how many people believe that. This would have to be supervised by experts... So in reality it doenst matter if you mix different R. leachianus, its all the same.
Of course some people who keep "pure" Island ABCDEFGHI...Z animals have financial reasons to promote "pure" animals.

have a nice day everyone

Ingo

[tminard18]

ya we kinda got off point with the hybrids and what not...

what do you mean its another form of morph breeding.... cause theyre two seperate things...the local and the color of the leachie...

we're gonna be breeding for morphs in the next couple years cause there soo many people that dont care about local and theyre gonna get all mixed up.

and the people buying rare locals will have a hard time sellin them for the prices theyre charging.

[ciliatus]

So how you know a leachie is a specific local form?

[jaspersail]

Like Ingo, I'm a little confused why "hybridization" is being discussed here... Crossing leachianus locales has nothing to do with hybrids. They are all purebred leachianus because all the various island and Grand Terre morphs found thus far are one species. They are not even distinct enough in the DNA to be considered subspecies (according to Aaron Bauer).

Nuu Ami x Pine Isle are pure-bred leachianus.
Grand Terre Type C x Bayonnaise are pure-bred leachianus.
(Grand Terre Mount Koghis x Moro) x (Nuu Ana x Brosse) are pure-bred leachianus.
And so on!

They are not hybrids nor mutts. They are simply interbred populations of the same species.

--John

[ciliatus]

Hi John,

thx for your input, thats just the way i see it. And why i compare it to color-breeding is, that most people are of the opinion that leachies from a certain isle look like this or that, so its mainly an issue of how the animals look like.

regards

Ingo

[tminard18]

Ok question for everyone. We have had the Hybrid debate on this forum before and the overwhelming majority of people said they had no problems with people hybridizing cresteds with other species. But it seems that everyone has problems with people crossing the different types of Leachies. And with Leachies we're just dealing with locality types and debatably sub-species. Definitely not as drastic as crossing two completely seperate species. It would seem to me that the argument for genetic vigor from "hybridizing" would apply to cross breeding the different types of Leachies way more than creating a new species through true hybridization. I havn't decided whether to get into Leachies or not but I don't want to be bound by breeding only certain locality types. If I can't selectively breed for certain traits then it's really no fun for me. Anyways I'd love to here your feedback on this, and I'm not attacking anyone, I just would like to hear from the "Leachie" community on this subject. :D

Im posting this as a seperate topic, so please reply in the other thread.

ummm..if you read all the posts you could see....matt brought up the fact that a lot of people dont have a problem with hybrids...but a lot of people do have a problem with crossing leachie locals....so we were talking and it got brought up

i get what you mean about location = morph, because the colors vary from location to location..but are they really that consistent in their coloring from each location?

[jaspersail]

So how you know a leachie is a specific local form?

You don't, unless the breeder knows the exact origin of the parents or lineage. Though there are characteristics of the locale morphs, I've seen Repashy and deVosjoli advising people (on the Repashy Forum) not to guess what their leachianus locality is unless they have rock-solid evidence where it came from. If you don't have proof of locality, just call it a leachianus without trying to attribute some location to its size or coloration.

Don't pick up bad English habits from us here, Ingo. A lizard (or person) from a specific area is from a "locale", not a "local" as is used incorrectly here so much. :roll: :D

--John

[tminard18]

buy from someone who specializes in leachies and hope they arent bullshitting you...

no such thing as proof of locality..

[MiNuRvA]

The discussion of hybridization was continued as well because one poster pointed out that there may be a genetic difference between ''locales'' (since we're now being spelling nazi's)
I don't know this to be true or not true, I just ran with it. I'm really just trying to find out what the fuss is all about, I don't see any problem with crossing locales as I believe, as many other have said, that they are all leachies, and locale doesn't make them a separate species. I'm curious as to why people call them 'mutts'. I'd be like breeding a german shepherd from the us and one from germany. some small physical differences, but still german shepherds.

[tminard18]

i dont think anyone has said they think differnt locales are different species....

they called them mutts.... because the thing the distinguishes them is their locality..you cant compare to dogs...cause dogs arent sperated into breeds by location of origin....it is completely different!!!!! you can compare it to breeding a shepard to a lab....cause theyre differnt breeds....my 11 year old brother understand this...

[Colleen07]

actually theres a big difference between american breed german shepards and German bred...German shepards. So actually its a very good comparison. Atleast I think so.

I dont understand what the big deal about breeding the different locales being as it would be very hard to know for a fact that yours is a "pure" locale. Breeding different colors is what gives you variety...sooo why not bred the difference locales.

[MiNuRvA]

Locals, what is a local. All locals are not equal. Some might have virtually genetically the same animals while others have quite different ones. Morphology may or may not agree with the genetics.




It was post number 22.


There are (in a dog person's eyes) big differences in american and german GSD's, but mostly in drives and temperaments. Physically, they still come in the same colors, but build and size are slightly different- ie, no sloping hips. In the case of the GSD crossing ''locales'' is good for American dogs, because german dogs tend to be bred better- german dog breeders tend to have a better grasp on selective breeding because they're not just breeding for looks. It would almost be comprable to breeding in wc stock to a selectively bred rhac line.

[tminard18]

lol...the fact that german shepards vary from here to there has absolutely nothing to do with it....am i the only one that thihnk these two are nuts?

[MiNuRvA]

There is no need to start calling names. If you do not wish to take part in that portion of the discussion then kindly butt out. It's an analogy, maybe you learned about those in English class sometime in the last couple of years?

[tminard18]

well i dont get why you guys keep rehashing the same stuff..and you make analogys that dont apply....someone please tell them why....i'm only 21 so i dont know anything....


sorry to call you nuts...but yorue so frustrating....no one else chimes in and helps... and i dont know how you guys get the reasoning you do....

and i dontknow why you always bring up my age....age has nothing to do with inteligence and i'd have said the same thing if i were 30

[Colleen07]

You know you are being very rude. Its simply a comparison, we're not saying its the same thing. Maybe you should listen to someones opinion, talk about it and not criticize them or pretty much say we're stupid.

[tminard18]

well if the comparison isnt right should someone say that...

i'm sorry to imply that..but i havent read anything from you to make me think otherwise...i'm not here to make friends as much as i am to discuss geckos and learn .....

[Colleen07]

Who cares about your age? I'm only 17 but opinions still matter. I dont think its exactly the same thing with the whole dog thing but like Minurva said its an analogy. you are the one that started bashing other peoples opinions.

[MiNuRvA]

I should hope that from 21 to 30 anyone would gain some knowledge and intelligence. You are insulting us for our opinion. No one else is chiming in because we're allowed to have this discussion. It makes sense to us, if it doesn't make sense to you, I'm sorry. It's a valid comarison because it takes something that some of us are more familiar with and creates a paralell that someone may understand a little more easily. If that's not you, fine. Make your own comparisons. You've yet to do that in this thread and in all this posting back and forward you've only said that I'm wrong, but not why you think so. If you want to participate- well then, do it! give me a comparison you think is accurate.

[tminard18]

apparently manurva does cause she thinks the reason i am rude is cause i'm young..shes told me so...that definately wasnt bashing...just a little rude....the analogy was wrong so i let you know...sorry i hurt your feeeelings

[tminard18]

oh ive said why youre wrong plenty of times..you just cant seem to grasp it....

[Colleen07]

You didnt hurt my feelings just making my angry that you cant discuss something without being a jerk. i didnt say the analogy was wrong, I just said it goes along with it but no its not exactly the same thing, because it has to do with dogs.

And have we insulted your intelligence once during this post? no but you have to us.

[tminard18]

they called them mutts.... because the thing the distinguishes them is their locality..you cant compare to dogs...cause dogs arent sperated into breeds by location of origin....it is completely different!!!!! you can compare it to breeding a shepard to a lab....cause theyre differnt breeds....my 11 year old brother understand this...[/QUOTE]

[MiNuRvA]

Here's where we're getting this analogy from.

Leachies, type ''a'' ''b'' ''c'' or whatever, are still leachies, just either from different islands or different parts. They may vary slightly in morphology.

GSDs from germany and gsds from America, still German Shepherd dogs. Just from different countries who breed for different attributes. Physical build slightly different.

Analogy.

[cizin]

...tminard18, here's where I think your confusion is coming in. American bred German Shepards(ABGS) and German bred German Shepards(GBGS) are very different animals. In America, we breed our dogs for looks, because we are superficial and stupid as a country. American dog shows just have the dogs walk around, so ABGS don't actually have to DO anything, other than look good, and that's just to get papers on the dog so it will be worth more money, as will it's puppies. (Woo long sentence of nad grammar) GBGS, at german dog shows, have to WORK. You know, what they're supposed to do. Pull carts, bark and hold, all that good stuff. Because of these differences, ABGS purposely have weak hips bred into them, just for looks. Germans laugh at our ABGS, and hate us a little over them, because we took an amazing breed of dog and F#$%ed it up for no reason. (Doubt me, go to germany, or email a german breeder and tell them you want a GBGS to breed to your ABGS. See what they say) Based on this, people here are posting referencing this as different GS locales. The problem with that is, they're NOT DIFFERENT LOCALES. GBGS are Repashy, or Caponetto, or Parks lines, and ABGS are Joe Smith's lines, with no crests and genetic kinky tail (apologies if there is an actually Joe Smith here). With Leachies, there is no proof that I know of stating that leachies need to be bred cross locale to have healthy animals. To me, until the science proves otherwise (like it appears to have done with the 'pitbull' leachies), locale crosses will always be designer mutts, just like labrodoodles and puggles. Now, you judge for yourself if that's good or bad, all I know is when I do leachies, I'm doing my best to stay locale specific, unless I really, honestly believe that I can do something good for the animal by crossing locales.

Oh, and just so we're all on the same page, I say F#$% Crested/Chahoua crosses to.

[Colleen07]

Actually German shepards do have difference standards between America and Germany. Almsot all breeds have difference standards when you go from country to country. I dont no if you no dog breeds or not but a lot of breeders in europe would not even consider breeding to some american dogs because they dont want to mix their line, for the same reason that people do not want to breed different locales. I understand what you mean but to me and Minurva it doesnt make sence, so how bout we agree to disagree?

[MiNuRvA]

they called them mutts.... because the thing the distinguishes them is their locality..you cant compare to dogs...cause dogs arent sperated into breeds by location of origin....[/QUOTE]


That is completely untrue. There are ''english'' cocker spaniels and ''american'' cocker spaniels. German rotties and american. Irish setters that we know in america are Irish red and whites in actual ireland, and should be classified differently, but the US doesn't recognise red and whites. There is also now talk about separating akitas into two separate breeds- 'japanese' as the import stock from japan is so physically different from ours, and american. Google it. There are a lot more breeds out there than just what the AKC recognizes. They don't govern everything in dog breeding.

[MiNuRvA]

The only difference in comparing gsd's to leachies is that gsd's were selectively bred to be gsd's and leachies came the way they are from the wild. German dogs are not the same dogs as american dogs. Even though they share the same breed name. That will probably change soon enough.
You could compare THAT to something like koi- longfin and regular. Still the same fish, but different physically.

[MiNuRvA]

You can't compare ''doodle' dogs to breeding leachies. That's because doodles are ALWAYS a cross breed. Always half something half poodle, never bred to another ''doodle' hee... I'm a poet and didn't know it. The reason they're called designer mutts is because people who breed them are feeding on the fad, not trying to strengthen or create something new and individual from the other breeds. They're not following the process of creating new breeds by pedigreeing and breeding back, and then breeding crosses to crosses. They're simply selling mutts and not creating a standard for any of them.

[tminard18]

I'm really just trying to find out what the fuss is all about, I don't see any problem with crossing locales as I believe, as many other have said, that they are all leachies, and locale doesn't make them a separate species. I'm curious as to why people call them 'mutts'. I'd be like breeding a german shepherd from the us and one from germany. some small physical differences, but still german shepherds.

ok ok...

this is how i see it...
she asked why people call leachie crosses mutts....and said that it would be like crossing two german shepards from different locations....

in the leachie world.... location determines the " breed"
so a mutt is a cross of two different locales....
so applying it to german shepards which are already a breed and then tlkainjg about breeding one from germany and one from here doesnt make since..the reason german german shepards / american shepards are not mutts is because they are still the same breed...so wether they differ in ability and what not, its irrelavent... locale has nothin to do with dogs because we already have our breeds

[Colleen07]

But you dont understand the they are actually considered to versions of the breed. Just like different locales are considered different versions of leachies.

[tminard18]

nevermind..i'm done..

[MiNuRvA]

ok ok...

this is how i see it...
she asked why people call leachie crosses mutts....and said that it would be like crossing two german shepards from different locations....

in the leachie world.... location determines the " breed"
so a mutt is a cross of two different locales....
so applying it to german shepards which are already a breed and then tlkainjg about breeding one from germany and one from here doesnt make since..the reason german german shepards / american shepards are not mutts is because they are still the same breed...so wether they differ in ability and what not, its irrelavent... locale has nothin to do with dogs because we already have our breeds

Show me some literature that says that different locales are different species.
Matt said in this very thread that they are at BEST different subspecies. Do they have differnt latin names? If so I was not aware.
The difference between locales= and the reason we've compared them to dogs= is that being from different islands they've evlolved slightly differently. They are still the same species, just physically slightly different.
In dogs, german dogs are different from american dogs. I'll find some pictures for you. So it IS the same as different locales, again the only difference being selective breeding vs. natural evolution. Reading your last post makes sense now why you didn't get what I was saying about selective breeding. Why are you getting upset over it? provide your evidence and debate away! No one is trying to bash you- just providing what whe kknow to be true.

[tminard18]

when did i say they were different species..now youre starting to freak me out...i said they were different breeds (morphs) to try help explain why your analogy doesnt work

[cizin]

Leachies, type ''a'' ''b'' ''c'' or whatever, are still leachies, just either from different islands or different parts. They may vary slightly in morphology.
GSDs from germany and gsds from America, still German Shepherd dogs. Just from different countries who breed for different attributes. Physical build slightly different.

Minurva, Let me say that you said bashing someone for their opinion is wrong, and I agree. However, also let me state that, no matter how well worded your opinion may be, I think your analogy is very misleading. ABGS have proven, bred in, cronic health problems. GBGS do NOT. I've worked with GBGS police dogs, and if I called the breeders I know in germany and asked for a hip gaurantee, or proof of hip quality in the parents, they would rip my head off through the phone for insulting them like that, and I'd deserve it. That would be like me asking you, "Hey, these cresteds I want to buy from you, have you kept them in a sh!t filled cage with no food?" You cannot compare locales to lines of proven inferior or superior health. When any sort of health difference between locales appears, I will recant my statement.

[Colleen07]

I dont think she necessarily meant that the health issues are the main point, I think that just might have been thrown in to try and make a point. I know I meant that their are quite a few Physical diffrences between the 2, and the same with other breeds as well. And thats what i was trying to compare to the leachies.

[MiNuRvA]

But they're not different ''breeds''. They're still leachies.

American GSD
http://www.german-shepherd-dog.co.uk/new%20info/Steve%27s%20New%20German%20Dog.jpg
German gsd
http://www.ruffgsd.com/Images/Puppies/pups91306/ester2.jpg

You could breed them together and still get a GSD, just like breeding two leachies produces a leachie.

[tminard18]

whatever manurva....its kind of a comparison but doesnt really apply... try another one...if you dont understand why its different than thats ok..

[MiNuRvA]

Minurva, Let me say that you said bashing someone for their opinion is wrong, and I agree. However, also let me state that, no matter how well worded your opinion may be, I think your analogy is very misleading. ABGS have proven, bred in, cronic health problems. GBGS do NOT. I've worked with GBGS police dogs, and if I called the breeders I know in germany and asked for a hip gaurantee, or proof of hip quality in the parents, they would rip my head off through the phone for insulting them like that, and I'd deserve it. That would be like me asking you, "Hey, these cresteds I want to buy from you, have you kept them in a sh!t filled cage with no food?" You cannot compare locales to lines of proven inferior or superior health. When any sort of health difference between locales appears, I will recant my statement.

Well while this dog discussion probably belongs in off topic, I'll address it once and them move on. Yes, I know that german breeders are very proud of their animals. I'm a former K9 handler, AND I've also participated in american conformation and performance events. The breeders in germany MUST get titles and health clearances before their dogs are even allowed to be registered- if you're familiar with ''pink papers'' which I would assume you are, those are necessary to breed. The dogs have to earn a working title, and have to pass rigorous physical testing.
The analogy is simply to show that animals coming from two geographical locations, while being different, are still the same animal. Still canis lupis familiaris. You could (theoretically) breed two german shepherds of different ''locality'' and still get a GSD, ignoring what german breeders might think of it. It's the act that would be the same as breeding two leachies and getting a leachie.

[cizin]

You can't compare ''doodle' dogs to breeding leachies. That's because doodles are ALWAYS a cross breed. Always half something half poodle, never bred to another ''doodle' hee... I'm a poet and didn't know it. The reason they're called designer mutts is because people who breed them are feeding on the fad, not trying to strengthen or create something new and individual from the other breeds. They're not following the process of creating new breeds by pedigreeing and breeding back, and then breeding crosses to crosses. They're simply selling mutts and not creating a standard for any of them.

See, that's where you're wrong. A labradoodle is the exact same thing as a Nui Ami X GT cross. Both are specific, established breeds of the same animal, being cross bred to 'Feed the fad.' In my opinion, 90% of the people that do leachie crosses do it because the leachie demand is high, and they don't have a breedable pair of the same locale. You keep trying to make a point on the what if's of the future, and that just doesn't work.

[MiNuRvA]

whatever manurva....its kind of a comparison but doesnt really apply... try another one...if you dont understand why its different than thats ok..

Don't insult my intelligence. It's you that does not understand. If you don't like it or don't want to try for whatever reason, then just move on. I stand behind what I said and I will continue to do so. I don't give up as easily as you.

[MiNuRvA]

See, that's where you're wrong. A labradoodle is the exact same thing as a Nui Ami X GT cross. Both are specific, established breeds of the same animal, being cross bred to 'Feed the fad.' In my opinion, 90% of the people that do leachie crosses do it because the leachie demand is high, and they don't have a breedable pair of the same locale. You keep trying to make a point on the what if's of the future, and that just doesn't work.
I don't beleive that to be true. Labs and poodles are morphologically very distant. Leachies are not. They may be slightly differnt in size or color, but that's most likely from environmental differences, similar to the ''environmental'' differences of breeding american and german gsd's. I'm not sure what you mean by the what if's and making a point on them.

[tminard18]

dogs already are dfiferent breeds...

location is what determines leachie breeds....!!!!!!! good god

it is not comparible..because location doesnt have anything to do with dogs even if some are better in one region..doesnt even matter cause they are differnt locations of origins..

locations for leachies is everything...different locales are differnt " breeds"

it doesnt get any more simple than that ...what dont you get!!!

its like you said...al dogs are dogs...all leachies are leachies...but we as humans like to sperate them into breeds.....

[cizin]

I'm a former K9 handler, AND I've also participated in american conformation and performance events.
The analogy is simply to show that animals coming from two geographical locations, while being different, are still the same animal. Still canis lupis familiaris. You could (theoretically) breed two german shepherds of different ''locality'' and still get a GSD, ignoring what german breeders might think of it. It's the act that would be the same as breeding two leachies and getting a leachie.

What police dept. did you work with, or train dogs for, that you've handled K9's? I've done decoy work for PD dogs all over the country, and ONLY police dogs get the K9 Distinction (note that K9 isnot a title or certification). By your arguement, I could breed a husky to a malamute, and still have a...oh yeah, a mutt. Look at a GT, and then look at an island E. Similar? very. The same? No. The science of it leans pretty heavily towards different locales of leachies eating different things, living in different environments, etc.. That doesn't sound the same to me. All canis lupis familiaris are the same on the inside, and should eat the same things (lets leave the dog food discussion alone for now). Leachies appear to be wired for different foods. If that's not proof they're not the same, I don't know what is.

[MiNuRvA]

OK, a mutt is a dog that's mixed, but the technical definition says that it 'varies in size and shape and is therefore difficult to classify physically.' That would not be the case with leachies as they would still be easily recognizeable as leachies. I don't think that crossing them would create such varied results as crossing say a chewie and a crestie that it (in my mind) could be called a mutt.

[MiNuRvA]

What police dept. did you work with, or train dogs for, that you've handled K9's? I've done decoy work for PD dogs all over the country, and ONLY police dogs get the K9 Distinction (note that K9 isnot a title or certification). By your arguement, I could breed a husky to a malamute, and still have a...oh yeah, a mutt. Look at a GT, and then look at an island E. Similar? very. The same? No. The science of it leans pretty heavily towards different locales of leachies eating different things, living in different environments, etc.. That doesn't sound the same to me. All canis lupis familiaris are the same on the inside, and should eat the same things (lets leave the dog food discussion alone for now). Leachies appear to be wired for different foods. If that's not proof they're not the same, I don't know what is.
I worked for a private agency that trains bomb and contraband dogs and provides K9's for the police. It's called Interquest, based out of Houston, TX. I was a handler/trainer there. I have been training for 13 years and own my own business. My credentials really have no bearing on a reptile discussion anyhow.
The fact that they eat different things probably has a lot to do with the fact that they live in different areas. Do you know about the availability of different food sources from island to island? That would be interesting to find out. Even still, eating different insects could be behavioral. Some cresties prefer worms over crickets. Doesn't make them a different species.

[cizin]

The fact that they eat different things probably has a lot to do with the fact that they live in different areas. Do you know about the availability of different food sources from island to island? That would be interesting to find out. Even still, eating different insects could be behavioral. Some cresties prefer worms over crickets. Doesn't make them a different species.

My fault, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean differnt food, worms or crickets. I meant different food, fruits to bugs to tiny crabs. That implies different guts and digestive junk to me.

[tminard18]

dude she just doesnt get it..its impossible...

[MiNuRvA]

dude she just doesnt get it..its impossible...

Ignoring you now since you don't have anything to contribute other than insults.


I see what you mean cizin, is there any information on that? That would be good to know. There's always a possiblity that they are more different than thought and have even been classified incorrectly. When I said worms vs crickets I was being kind general , but I would think that they would be able to eat farily varied foods within reason.

[cizin]

I see what you mean cizin, is there any information on that? That would be good to know. There's always a possiblity that they are more different than thought and have even been classified incorrectly. When I said worms vs crickets I was being kind general , but I would think that they would be able to eat farily varied foods within reason.

Yes. Read the big book that came out in '03. People call it the Rhac 'bible.' It goes into it in some detail there.

Also, let me ammend my statement with this: Locale crossing isn't good. They are mutts. However, with rare ones, like the GT, there's not enough animals here NOT to cross breed. What burns me is when I see isle E crossed with X, and that's bred to isle E crossed with Y. Breed for something, not just hapazardly.

[MiNuRvA]

Breed for something, not just hapazardly.

This I can agree with. That's my main beef with selective breeding, because all too often the ''breeder'' only cares about one physical attribute, without taking into consideration all the other factors.

I think a friend of mine has a couple of copies of the rhac bible. I've never read it because I no longer keep rhacs. I just like this forum and all of the good debaters =D>

[MiNuRvA]

and ONLY police dogs get the K9 Distinction

BTW, not necessarily true- as some of our dogs were handled by private agencies but still had to go through the same certifiaction and training process. Some were sold to PDs all over the country, and some were kept within our agency. They were still called K9s. I did work for the Sheriff's dept. here, but only in the jail. I don't like the politics of working for the local gov't., plus, they pulled all female officers from the K9 unit, so there wasn't anywhere else I wanted to go in the department. :D

[MiNuRvA]

OK so I figured out what was bugging me about this. If the ''locales'' of leachie are that physically different then locale is the wrong word for them. They should then be called a subspecies. Locale, by definition, MEANS a geographical area, and so each locale of leachie would only be defined as being from a different locale. Now, take into consideration the availability of food sources, predation, habitat, etc, and then there's the possibility for the animals to evolve differently, but at what point do you stop calling it a locale and start calling it a subspecies? If they are truly only of different locale, then the cross breeding would not really be cross breeding at all. If they are different subspecies, then that puts a whole new spin on the topic.
With that in mind- I think I would still be OK with cross breeding sub-species, because again these are pets and it's a hobby, not a conservation effort. People purchase and enjoy hybrids of all kinds- mules, macaws, wolf hybrids, etc, and I don't really see any difference here, as long as it's done ethically and by knowledgeable breeders.

[Brian]

Morphology isn't always an acurate indicator of genetics.

[MiNuRvA]

Morphology isn't always an acurate indicator of genetics.

Yes but I'm not talking morphology. If it's ONLY morphology that divides them, then it's not cross breeding.

[jaspersail]

Yes but I'm not talking morphology. If it's ONLY morphology that divides them, then it's not cross breeding.

For years the island forms of leachianus have been subdivided from the Grand Terre forms by the subspecific name henkeli.

At the New Caledonian Gecko Symposium in October 2006, Aaron Bauer reported results of his DNA analysis of Grand Terre and island (henkeli) forms. His conclusion is that henkeli forms are not different enough--at the genetic level--to warrant subspecies status. In other words, they are not subspecies, just populations with morphological differences.

--John

[Darren5531]

As long as your produce healthy offspring then whats the problem? If they are not genetically different enough to be called sub-spieces then it is just like breeding different colors of cresteds, but only if they are the same biologically(Spelling) speaking. Meaning that if animal A eats hard crabshells its digistive track would have be stronger then that of animal B who eats soft crickets, But if animal A and animal B had the same internals and could eat both then the "locales" are mostly used for pheno-type characteristcs(spelling). I new to all of this but from what I have read in the forum this is my conclusion. Feel free to correct me on my errors, I'm here to learn.

[RangerGrrl]

Why don't we take this discussion a little closer to home, instead of using dog breeds, which seems to have caused a lot of confusion after the initial analogy? Reptiles are often defined or identified by herpers both by species (genetic differences) and locale (a geographical location where an animal was found). A better analogy may be to compare leachies to Green Tree Pythons. Both are expensive (and I realize GTPs are MORE expensive, don't start splitting too many hairs), both require slightly more specialized care then other species in thier family, both have raging debates going about locale vs. color morph. Just like GTPs, leachies have been genetically proven (thank you for the post, Jaspersail) to be genetically indistinct. No matter what the morph color/size differences, they ARE all one species.

So, what does this have to do with leachies, you might ask? THe same arguments presented in this thread have been going on for years in the GTP community. For both species, it is difficult to prove without a doubt that a given animal came from a given locale, and that the lines have not been crossed after the fact.

Here is what the GTP community does with this: they have breeders who are fanatics about locale, and they have breeders who are fanatics about morphs and color types. If you get in a snake from Merauke, but you have no collection paperwork to back it up, then all you have is a Merauke-type GTP. You might breed it and end up with stunning offspring that turn into high yellow animals..... That does NOT mean that another Merauke-TYPE snake will give similar results....... or that you can sell the offspring as Merauke Locale animals.

So in leachies, there are reputable breeders with PROVEN paper trails that you can buy definite locale animals from with confidence. If that is what you are after then it is in fact possible. You can also buy some truly excellent and beautiful animals from equally reputable breeders who are healthy, vigorous, and fertile who have no traceable paperwork or whose parents are known to be from different locales. These are no more "mutt" leachies than unknown location Green Tree Pythons are "mutt" snakes.

My husband and I own a gorgeous little gem of a GTP, Aru-type. THis means she looks like snakes that are often collected from that area. NOTHING else. She is however in no way a mutt. She is ALSO at the same time considered a white-spotted morph of a GTP. These two descriptions are concurrent. This will probably be where leachies end up in several years, as people finally get done with the argument and more research is released. Leachies can be BOTH a morph and a locale, and different people will breed for what is important to them. Breeding morphs together does not make them mutts. It DOES make locale purists scream, though. Just because locale purists scream doesn't make something wrong. This is what I have learned during a lot of research into GTP genetics and morphs.

Lastly, thank you guys for toning down the discussion on your own. Please remember to keep discussion civil and no name calling.

[firecrested]

It wouldnt matter to me either way. Leachies are the only Rhac that I dont like.

[mack2]

It wouldnt matter to me either way. Leachies are the only Rhac that I dont like.

You don't like leachies??? Can I ask why?

Mackenzie

[firecrested]

I just think they're big ugly geckos. I like the little cute ones.

[jaspersail]

There is a similar thread (on breeding locales, not whether Pangea should sell leachianus!) over at the Repashy Forum right now. Allen and Philippe have added their expertise to the discussion... In case you're interested:

http://www.forums.repashy.com/showthread.php?t=5483

--John

[MiNuRvA]

Very interesting, thanks for the link. I noticed both Philippe and Allen used the dog comparison. A little different from the way I was thinking, but they difinitely cleared it up for me. The idea of creating a standard for the different locales is exactly the way that breeds of dogs were concocted and remain consistent. I think I agree with them that this would be the best way to preserve the look of the locale without working with such a limited gene pool.

[ciliatus]

I think I agree with them that this would be the best way to preserve the look of the locale without working with such a limited gene pool.

Color/Morph-breeding, just like i said. The animals wouldnt have anything to do with the locals anymore, so whats the use?

regards

Ingo

[MiNuRvA]

What's the use of breeding specific locals if the gene pool is so limited that within a couple of years they look nothing like they did to begin with? What's the use of breeding 'pure' animals who will eventually have a multitude of problems related to inbreeding? The way Philippe was talking these problems are already starting to occur.

[ciliatus]

You got me wrong, i dont care about specific locals if you read my earlier posts.

[MiNuRvA]

I must have just misunderstood this one. Sorry!:oops:

I think that Philippe was right on when he said a standard should be established, that way you can cross out and cross back in to acheive the LOOK, without the damage from inbreeding. If you're breeding 'pure' locales you're only breeding for a look anyhow... might as well be a crested morph.